The Injury
The two girls get into a fight over Peter and Michele proceeds to indirectly insult Norah by mentioning Peter's low standard, while Norah replies with a mean snipe at her weight (which the art has no indication of, anyway). Michele is clearly annoyed and demands to Norah to explain herself, to which she replies "Next time someone slides you a plate of rice and beans, grab some ensalada, honey" (the emphasis is mine). The scene is interrupted by the arrival of Mary Jane, but we see later that Michele calls Norah a racist, and she replies "I'm not a racist, sir. I'm equally mean to hussies of all colors."This could be true to Norah's character, that she is mean to everyone, because from what I have seen, she is portrayed as such (again, not reading this title, so feel free to let me know if I am totally wrong). Wikipedia also reveals to me that she is dating Randy Robertson, the son of long-time Spider-Man supporting character Robbie Robertson, who also happens to be a black man. So I don't think the character is racist perse, but the comment could definitely be interpreted as such.
The Insult
Rice and beans, in case you didn't know, are very popular side dishes in Central America and a good chunk of the Caribbean. It also gave rise to the popular slang term to describe Hispanics: "beaners" (which ranks just a little below "spics" in terms of offensiveness). To put it in another way, to say "The next time someone offers you rice and beans..." to a Hispanic is akin to saying "The next time someone offers you fried chicken..." to a black person. Or watermelon, or whatever other food is used in other racist jokes. It's a crude stereotype (and as all stereotypes, it's based partly on truth and exaggerated to extreme levels) that in this context doesn't seem to have any sense of playfulness, just a venomous anger.
There's also the "ensalada" bit, which is the translation of salad in Spanish. No stereotypes in this part, but saying something in Spanish to someone that clearly speaks English as a native (or almost) language is condescending. I have been on the receiving end of this kind of thing before, so I know what I am talking about. Imagine you are in the middle of a conversation, and the other person drops the normal language he was using and starts talking using baby or child-like words that he wouldn't normally use, because he thinks you aren't understanding him (even though you clearly are understanding everything that was being said). It is an insult to the intelligence of the person involved in the conversation, and even more so when you add it to the aforementioned context.
The Result
What really bothers me is not the fact that there was a racist line or joke in a comic, I am an adult I know these things exist in everyday life, and comics like any other art form are a reflection of life. What bothers me is that this was a throwaway line in a "catfight", used without regards of the connotations it carries. Like I said above, can you imagine if Michele had been a black person instead, and the line would have been "The next time someone slides you a bucket of fried chicken, grab some corn, honey"? People would be pretty outraged at this, right?
Especially since the title is Amazing Spider-Man, and by Marvel's standard, a "Rated A" (for ages 9 and up) book. I don't think it would have mattered so much to me if this had this appeared in a MAX title or a Marvel Knights title or a creator owned title. But this is Marvel's flagship three-times-monthly title, not a fringe book with a small niche readership. Joe Kelly was the writer in this particular issue, but thanks to the books almost weekly nature, there's a squad of editors and associated writers (the Spider Brain Trust) attached to planning, plotting and helping with the script of this title. I don't care who gets the blame, I just don't think it was an appropriate line to put in this book, and hopefully it won't happen again.
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38 comments:
Great analysis on this, Matt. I think the worst part about all of this is that Kelly clearly didn't want it to come across as racist, which is clear by the fact that he added Norah's line regarding being mean to "hussies of all colors." It almost seems like that is supposed to be the apology for anyone taking the original joke to be racist.
My response to that is, why even bother then? She could've easily insulted Michelle about her weight without using anything that could be construed as racist. Did Kelly really think the line was so witty that it just had to be included, even if a half-assed retraction was added? This is a situation that could have and should have been avoided.
I dont think it even constitutes as an apology. It's the equivilent of saying, "I have 3 black friends, so can't be racist." Or, if you want a non racist example, it's the same as saying, "I don't mean to offend you, but..." or "don't take this personal, but...", as you go on to offend someone. You don't get to be an asshole just because you preface your insults with an apology.
Kirk, you nailed it on the head! I thought of the "I'm not racist, I have black friends" example and was just logging back into the site to bring it up!
I think we can all agree that Norah Winters is probably a bad person, and the Spider Brain Trust is largely incompetent.
as a minority in the US and a spidey fan... I think this has been blown way out of proportion and you folks need to take it easy.
same with the whole "OMG! There's a rape in comic!!" blah blah blah
^^ But just my opinion... let the discussion commence...
I found it a bit tastless and riskee, but it was more the bticthyness as a whole, not so much the "racist" remark.
Maybes should have bumped the issue up to a T+ rating. But I guess the retialers a) wouldn't notice or B) wouldn't stop selling it to the younger audience.
But come to think of it alot of the latest issues have been pretty dark too :-/
Anyway I think you may be overeacting :-/, and I really don't think any digs should be made at Marel or J. Kelly at this point. They chose to potray Norah that way, may not have came across to well, perhaps they took it a bit too far. But I wouldn't be branding them racist.. If Kelly was to do something similar in the next part or at a later date, then I think everyone has a right to be angry.
Again at this point, I'm not gunna be offended on "anyones behalf."
L
if the intention is to push across a character as racially insensitive then the line(s) achieves this swiftly. I'm not sure you can write a character as racist without doing something of this nature.
In that regard I dont see this as a problem. Shocking? Yes. Strange? Kind of. Poor taste? Maybe a little.
However, if the line(s) are in there just for shock value and have no real long term placement in the character or story then its just a way to create a race-baiting conversation and that's dumb in the flagship title.
I don't think there was anything wrong with this at all. If anything, I think its more realistic and it just shows how much of a bitch Norah is.
Just to be clear, I don't think Joe Kelly or any of the writers are racists. I just thought it was a stupid line that the scene could have done without.
Ryan mentioned it in the first post, there could have been literally a thousand other lines to replace it and it would have still made Norah come across as 'bitchy' or whatever they were trying to convey. To resort to that line, which obviously carries a racist connotation that both characters acknowledge, to make a joke seems pointless and not very sensitive, especially for this title.
Better line:
"I know you're related to a pig but that doesn't mean you have to eat like one."
Although that opens up a whole new can of worms.
I think Norah's character is definitely racist. That does not mean that the character should not be shown in comics. They have portrayed genocidal characters before. They have racist characters in Skrull Kill Krew.
Your analysis is valid but if you are making a point then do you mean that there should be no racism in comics (or media as a whole) at all?
I have no problem with racist or genocidal characters.
What bothered me is that this was (seemingly) a throwaway line. My problem stems from the fact that it was wantonly used as a joke, but nothing else. If they plan to make Norah a racist, then by all means they have the right to do that. If this is just a beginning of a developing plot line, where Norah starts becoming more intolerant of races, or something along those lines, then this line was properly used.
I just took it as a girl being bitchy...you guys have never seen a girl get pissed before? all they do is go below the belt...didn't find this offensive at all
In Kelly's debut on Amazing Spider-Man when he first introduced Norah (ASM #575 to #576), she and Peter had this exchange while investigating gang activity:
Peter Parker: Maybe we should split up. Cover more ground.
Norah Winters: What? And leave little ol' me in the Big Bad Bronx without any protection? Someone of color might speak to me.
Peter Parker: Wow, insulting to my manhood and racist. What did I do to deserve you?
Norah Winters: I'm kidding, Parker. I'm equally obnoxious to all people.
So yeah, not only is this apparently an unfortunate characteristic of hers, but Kelly is recylcing the same "joke."
--stillanerd
@Stillanerd: Thanks for that info. I didn't know that she had been portrayed like that before. Is it only Kelly that gives her that attribute, or do other writers do it as well?
@Matt Ampersand: You're welcome. I think Joe Kelly might be the only one who gives her this attribute. The only other writer on ASM who has used her character thus far is Dan Slott, and while he still depicts her as having an obnoxious and snarky personality, I don't believe he had her say anything that makes her comes across as racist.
--stillanerd
wow an analysis and though on this that isn't as retarded as box in the box's constant hate bile!
good stuff
I believe you are overreacting; I mean, the whole scene was annoying because of the "unwanted harem" vibe it had. The racist comments were bad but they weren't the worse part of that scene and it's not like you needed a whole post to point them out (luckily, you didn't make one for the "Chameleon raped Michelle" thing a few issues ago; it happenned in GameFAQS and it was quite dumb).
Also, does it help my argument if I mention than I'm Hispanic and didn't mind those lines?
hahahha.... you actually explained rice and beans.
The one thing that does kind of even things out a little for me is that every time Norah says something that's borderline or worse, another character calls her on it (Michelle in the scene posted, Peter in stillanerd's example). She manages to either brush off the accusation both times because she doesn't care enough, but still, it's something.
My big problem with it is kind of what stillanerd pointed out, how Kelly actually used the same "edgy" joke twice. I largely like his arcs for the plotting and action, but a good portion of the humor he writes into the book is just way too mean for me. It started that way with the homeless woman at the beginning of his Hammerhead arc and it's come through his take on Norah a couple times now and I just don't care for that aspect of his writing.
These lines don't appear to be any more racist than a whole lot of an episode of say "Curb Your Enthusiasm" and it's certainly a whole lot less so than Sarah Silverstein. In the post "South Park" age I think this sort of humor is more or less acceptable. I actually found the whole scene pretty funny.
I can't believe there was just an outcry about that.
In a recent Uncanny X-Men, Cannonball (an actual hero, not a random supporting character) made a racist joke about black people. There was some negative critics, but nothing near what happened with Norah. Despite Uncanny being a high profile comics.
So I guess it's just BND hater making all a fuss about nothing and trying to find more reasons to hate.
@mugiwara For what it's worth, I've enjoyed pretty much everything from Spidey since BND started (even the Kelly issues despite the stuff I mentioned in my earlier comment). But Norah's insult stood out to me immediately while I don't remember Cannonball's joke at all. It might be that Fraction is just better at working it in or something and Kelly just makes his jokes the centerpiece of the scene.
But at least with me, it's possible to be uncomfortable with that scene while still loving BND.
@Flip: Box in the box? What's that?
@Radlum: I heard about the outcry over the Chameleon issue. MightyGodKing, who is actually a law student, did a pretty good breakdown of it.
http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2009/09/13/the-odd-legal-ramifications-of-dmitri-smerdyakov/
It's a pretty interesting case, and I understand why people might have been upset, even though I wasn't among the ones that were upset.
@The Dangster: We have a lot of readers from Canada, Australia, Europe, so I wanted to make sure everyone understood where I was coming from.
@Eddie: I don't have a problem per se with racial humor, but a lot of it is in the context and delivery. Considering the delivery in this case is left up to completely to the readers, and the context makes it seem that there was very little sense in terms of joke and more along the lines of an insult. And most of those shows you mentioned are shown late at night, and have the TV-14 rating (I think) and are intended for more mature audiences. ASM (despite being read mostly by adults, probably) is still billed as an "A" title.
@Mugiwara: I may not be reading BND, but both Kirk and Ryan (among others) have agreed that the points I make are valid ones. And I have only seen my post about this issue, I have no idea if someone else is making a big deal out of it.
And I don't think I am overreacting, I am not calling for the book to be recalled or for a boycott or anything. I'm just saying that this was a completely unnecessary line, and I am disappointed to see it used so carelessly.
I found the issue to be okay in terms of enjoyment, even though I felt wierd reading this joke. And the whole sexist approach to the issue was pretty tacky. If the plot hadn't moved on when it did I'd probably would have cam down harder on it.
Entirely forgot about that first "racist" joke by Norah... now that is pushing things! I said earlier if Kelly had repeated this behaviour in his writing I'd start to questioning him. I didn't realise this was the 'repeat' :-P
A bit worrying... but I haven't really seen much of an online resposne bar this site.
L
I loved the last issue of ASM and am looking forward to this one ("racist" comments aside). Still, for all the excitement over the comments made in ASM, the equally (if not more) racist comments made by Monica/Photon in MARVEL DIVAS #1 were ignored (see her convesation about Katrina) Still, its only racist if you think it is. Nora Winters may be a racist but she's also the type of person who does her best to offend whoever she is dealing with. She does her best to get under everyone's skin. Does it excuse her words? Not realy...but I'd say she is more of just an all round bitch than a racist.
Re: Overreacting
I don't view this as us overreacting to what Norah says. We're not calling for a boycott or demanding reprints/retractions/apologies. We saw something we didn't agree with and brought it up for discussion.
Re: Why it matters
Is Norah supposed to be racist is the big question now. If that is who she is, then, by all means, play up that aspect and build it to a conclusion at some point.
Personally, I don't think she is. I think the comments are meant to be funny and they are trying to defuse the racist connotations by having her explain it away with 'i hate everyone equally'. It's like I mentioned in my original comment - it's prefacing an insult with an apology or saying you have 'x number of black friends'. That doesn't give you the right to be racist and is not a valid reason.
Some are suggesting she's simply a bitch character getting under people's skins. That can work I suppose, but this is also an all ages comic (dont ask me how a main character making deals with the devil or having drunken sex with someone is considered all ages though). You can have her make fun of weight or how she dresses or other aspects of her character to be a bitch and not resort to racist comments, regardless of the degree of racsim implied. This isn't spur of the moment writing. This is something planned, looked over and can be changed.
If the writers can't reword it, as others have already suggested examples of, there's something wrong. There's absolutely no reason to perpetuate a stereotype or introduce racist remarks for insults if there's no story payoff or character development involved, which there has been no indication of for Norah as of yet.
That is my biggest problem with it. They could write it differently, but either dont see a problem with it or can't be bothered. If you can say it differently, but still use the racist comment/stereotype for no other reason than laziness, that's not something people should just ignore and deserves to be discussed.
The thing that I don't understand is the questioning of Joe Kelly's and ASM Editorial's culpability with regards to "the comment". It WAS, obviously a comment that can be construed as racist. Michelle Rodriguez says as much in her next line when she calls Norah a racist. It was immediately established as a remark with racist implications by her reaction (a line also written by Kelly and approved by editorial). There are people like Norah in the real world and likewise, there will be people like Michelle, who will call her on these comments. I understand the need to be sensitive in a book that is "all ages" but maybe the fact that Michelle said it was a racist comment was the lesson here. Racism is a learned behavior (from parents and such...not comic books per se) and it is a part of our world (and Marvel 616 apparently) and comes down to an individual's perception of right and wrong. Anyone who can read on the level that a copy of ASM is written on is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong (and if they don't they should). The true insensitivity would have lied in the comment being made and never countered...but that is not the case here.
@smkedtky: Good point about that Marvel Divas line. It bothered me because it felt very out place in the comic, and it was completely unnecessary as well. I just didn't do a whole post about it.
I think its just easy to point out this crappy line and moment when the flagship spidey title is overall just being currently poorly recieved.
Wow I missed this earlier, so that is why I'm commenting a month later! I do not have a problem with this line at all. Norah has been established as a "ballsy" character not afraid to speak her mind. I mean, she went undercover to get a story Norman Osborne and was sneaking around in his tower. She simply thinks that she can get away with whatever she wants and lives her life this way. I know women who are somewhat like that (none to the extent that Norah is) and when they get into arguments, this is exactly the kind of thing a woman like that would say. I think Kelly was trying to make the argument realistic as well as to give readers a glimpse into the kind of character Norah is (she is only in every 3rd or 4th issue) since many people might not know who she is. As for the "all ages" aspect of the book, I still do not think that this is a problem. If you are reading and understanding an ASM book then you know what racism is and you know that it is wrong. The fact that the "racist" comment is coming out of an annoying, mean spirited, character whose sole purpose seems to be to insult and disrupt Peter's life could be interpreted as showing that the kind of people who say stuff like this are people like Norah, and I can not believe that anyone who reads ASM would ever aspire to be a person like her. Finally, I think this entire discussion plays into a problem in America right now involving racism. Rasicm is still a huge problem in this country and when it occurs, it is a big deal an rightfully so. Another problem, however, is how sensitive America is to race right now. I mean, no one made a big deal that Norah calls Michelle a hussy, which is a derogatory remark directed at women, making it a sexist insult. But because its a sexist comment and does not involce race, it is completely looked over which should not be the case. Biggotry is biggotry and it does not matter what kind it is, it is all wrong. Discrimination against women in this country is still a big deal, especially in the work place, but no one bats an eye at sexist comments in popular culture or in real life. But if it in any ways might involve something that could be contived as racist then all hell breaks loose. I'm not suggesting we should overlook racist comments as we do to many sexist ones, nor am I suggesting that the problems related to sexism are as harsh or dangerous as racism. But this is simply a portrayal of a realistic argument in a form of literature and it should be taken in the same context as the hussy comment or any other comment that is insulting to a specific group of people.
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