IGN Comics had an interesting article up that followed up on something Mark Millar said in an interview they had with him. Millar claimed that Superman, Spider-Man and other major characters are no longer relevant and basically need to be put out to pasture to make way for newer creations and genres, such as Invincible, Walking Dead, more Vertigo and independant work. Here's an excerpt.
This started out as a simple opinion piece and grew fairly lengthy. I didn't realize I had that much to say on the topic of how the industry evolved to its current state. Hit the jump for the full diatrab and feel free to comment with your opinion as I'd like to hear what others think of the current state of the industry, its refusal to let go of older workhorses, like Superman, and general remarks.
I really feel as though there's a massive gap in the market. All of my favorite books are new - Walking Dead, Invincible, the Brian K. Vaughan stuff and everything, you know? Books that really excite me are the new ones. I dearly love Superman and Batman, but even I, right, the guy who has the Superman's cape on the wall in my bloody hall, right, even I am starting to see that I love them like I love Sherlock Holmes. They belong to another era now, you know? I think the reason they don't sometimes sell is that they belong to another era. And it's an era I'm madly in love with, but I can appreciate that 12 year olds maybe aren't. I think… it's almost gone, that stuff. There's almost no interest in it, which is a real shame. I just wonder if maybe they belong to the 20th century.
This started out as a simple opinion piece and grew fairly lengthy. I didn't realize I had that much to say on the topic of how the industry evolved to its current state. Hit the jump for the full diatrab and feel free to comment with your opinion as I'd like to hear what others think of the current state of the industry, its refusal to let go of older workhorses, like Superman, and general remarks.
Concerning Superman
Many longtime Superman fans will jump right up and list a dozen different stories that they think will prove him wrong, and I'd probably agree most of those stories are excellent as well, but does one good story every five years validate the four or five issues a month that are well below average quality simply because just about everything you can say about Superman has been said?
Some of the comments for the IGN article point to All-Star Superman as how Superman should be written. It's an Elseworlds tale. It forgoes all continuity and puts Superman in situations he cannot be in the regular DCU. Is it incredible? Yes, possibly the best book on the market...when it comes out.
What About DC?
DC is terrible for stagnation in their universe. I suppose since their characters have existed roughly twice as long as every other Marvel character can do that to a company, but Warner Bros can also be blamed. WB has a large say in how Superman and Batman are handled. They want a character they can sell merchandise for. You can't have the character drastically change, go evil, turn darker or any other significant change that would affect merchandising, marketing and licensing properties. They don't control every single aspect of the company, but when a character becomes more of a cash cow and property than a character or story, there's a problem.
What About Marvel?
In contrast, Marvel has existed for a relatively short time compared to DC. They are fresher, so to speak, in people's minds compared to DC's. Marvel's characters are also flawed and more realistic, as far as comic book characters can be, than DC's, with the exception of Batman, the most 'Marvel-like' character DC has and thus, the one that's handled the transition throughout the years the best in the DC stable.
Concerning Spider-Man
Even though Marvel is the young gun, Spider-Man's tank seems to be running dry. Ultimate Spider-Man is great, but it's basically rehashing everything that came before with some new twists. Spidey's rogues gallery is in shambles and most every single villain is damaged goods now. Brand New Day is a reversion to 1970 or there abouts.
There are two Spider-Man stories I can think of off the top of my head that I would consider to be excellent in the last 10 to 15 years. The first, surprisingly, is a recent Sensational Spider-Man story that featured Mary Jane stalling some capekillers in a diner while Peter makes his way to meet up with her. The other is Amazing Spider-Man #400, featuring the death of Aunt May before magic and actresses and other crap erased this from existence. Did I like, and note you can like something without it being an All-Star Superman level of quality, other Spidey stories along the way? God yes, but they were far from Spidey's hay day back in the Stern and Romita era or earlier.
When's The Retirement Party?
I honestly don't think every character needs to be written off into the sunset, but there came a time, and we can probably pinpointed it if we wanted to around the death of Gwen Stacy or maybe marriage of Peter and MJ, that Marvel and DC both stopped evolving. It's like someone came in and turned the switch and everyone was forced to stay exactly the same for 30 or 40 years.
Why didn't Peter and MJ move on and have children? Why hasn't Superman aged and taken over the Justice Society? Why hasn't Batman grown older and either retired or become the grizzled DKR version of himself? Even if they didn't want to be that radical in their approaches, why has everyone stopped?
Spider-Man is easier to do this with, so I'll focus on him. Stan Lee created Spider-Man. He was a teenager in high school. He aged and moved out of Aunt May's, entered college and he left the title in other people's hands with Spider-Man a very different person from when the book started. Then they killed Gwen Stacy. Game over man, game over! We've been hearing about that damn bridge for 30 years now because, while 100 issues were equivilent to about 7 years of his life, the other 400 (and that's only counting ASM!) are equivilent to 3 or 4 years. I guess it's hard to get over someone when time stops moving.
Superman is similar, but I can't figure out what origin we're using this week, so I'll just say he was high school jock, left for university, became a reporter and went to Metropolis. He acted like a bumpkin and pretended to be human for about 50 years while trying to shack up with Lois Lane. Then he reveals it was all a lie to her and they get married. Now, their relationship is dead. There's no romance, no tension. She's Lois and he's bumpkin by day, Superman by night. Oversimplified, but nothing has changed outside of numerous revamps and origins that all lead back to zero. I don't think Super-kids are the answer, but there's no drama from villains - he's Superman and they can't compete - and there's no drama from relationships and they just keep retelling the same old Lex Luthor stories followed by years of non-Superman level threats. It's like Batman said, Superman hasn't inspired anyone since he died.
Manga Model
I look at manga and think how diverse the number of genres they have. Naruto and Dragonball Z are not the only manga ever created and no where near representative of the manga industry, which is a multi-billion dollar industry compared to the million dollar US comics industry. Even if we look at Dragonball, it started out with the main character as a child, followed him through the years, had a time jump and then had some adult adventures where everyone got married, had kids, aged and the kids grew up. It was progressive and engaging without relying on nostolgia to keep it going. Many series are finite and tell a story and then end it. If there's more to tell and the series sold well enough, the author will release a new book. These can be crime, super hero, action, romance, teen or comedies, it doesn't matter over there.
At some point the US market put a foot down and said no more new books! We want the same bankable commodity forever more and that was it. We get the odd book that launches, gets praised and then falls back down into cancellation, but we still gotta keep collecting that Superman, Batman and Spider-man!
Look at Morrison, Millar, Ellis, etc
Take a look at the list of the most popular writers in comics. People like Grant Morrison and Mark Millar aren't loved, or hated in some cases, because they tell safe, boring rehashes of old stories. Much of their work is termed revolutionary or unconventional or genius, to name a few descriptors. Morrison in particular must be on some serious drugs based on the insane stuff he comes up with. These writers turn the medium on its head and that is why they are popular.
Morrison's All-Star Superman isn't popular because it's Superman. It's popular because it's new and unique and a completely different take that couldn't be told in the DCU and features a Superman that is mallable and has a personality and, to be honest, could be swapped with any generic hero and the story would still be incredible because this isn't the Superman everyone knows. It's just a guy in the same suit that is in an incredible story when you compare him to the wooden personality version in the DCU.
To continue with Morrison, his New X-Men was so revolutionary that it turned the mutant world upsidedown and made a lot of old characters new again. It was so incredibly good and definitive, when taken as a whole as there were some duds in the run, that no writer could follow up on his work without running it into the ground. It's the single reason Marvel was forced to retcon most everything. No one could possibly follow that up with such high concepts and ideas with the exception of Marvel having an Ellis or what have you on deck to take over.
Just look at Ultimates for a perfect example of what's wrong with today's writers. Millar is exciting, genre blending and defying with high concepts and a mix of real world and comics. Loeb is old fashioned and should be put out to pasture. He merely apes other, more contemporary writers in an attempt to be edgy and relevant in a world that passed him by while basically going way over the line in terms of shock value nonsense. Sales back him up, but it will only delude the franchise in the long run.
Conclusion
Yes, an actual conclusion to this manifesto! Many new readers will wonder what the hell I'm talking about, but older ones will recognize how stagnant and redudant many books have become over the years and are constantly rewarded for it out of blind loyalty, to which I am guilty of along with everyone else. Comics in the US came to a point where they could either expand or stick with what works and they gave up on any kind of future and put all the money on a two legged, blind horse and we are left with what you see today, a rather uncreative, on the whole, industry with little diversity and miniscule sales and consumer recognition and the 'for kids' stigma.
I honestly wish we had some growth. I look at the MC2 universe with Spider-Girl and the numerous legacy characters and wish Marvel had become something like that. Same thing for DC. I'd rather a Kingdom Come-esque legacy character ridden future and a greyed, retired Superman, albeit maybe a little less bleak, than the merry-go-round of redundancy that we have today.
Will I keep buying books and supporting this? You bet ya, but that doesn't mean a little part doesn't die everytime I do.
Many longtime Superman fans will jump right up and list a dozen different stories that they think will prove him wrong, and I'd probably agree most of those stories are excellent as well, but does one good story every five years validate the four or five issues a month that are well below average quality simply because just about everything you can say about Superman has been said?
Some of the comments for the IGN article point to All-Star Superman as how Superman should be written. It's an Elseworlds tale. It forgoes all continuity and puts Superman in situations he cannot be in the regular DCU. Is it incredible? Yes, possibly the best book on the market...when it comes out.
What About DC?
DC is terrible for stagnation in their universe. I suppose since their characters have existed roughly twice as long as every other Marvel character can do that to a company, but Warner Bros can also be blamed. WB has a large say in how Superman and Batman are handled. They want a character they can sell merchandise for. You can't have the character drastically change, go evil, turn darker or any other significant change that would affect merchandising, marketing and licensing properties. They don't control every single aspect of the company, but when a character becomes more of a cash cow and property than a character or story, there's a problem.
What About Marvel?
In contrast, Marvel has existed for a relatively short time compared to DC. They are fresher, so to speak, in people's minds compared to DC's. Marvel's characters are also flawed and more realistic, as far as comic book characters can be, than DC's, with the exception of Batman, the most 'Marvel-like' character DC has and thus, the one that's handled the transition throughout the years the best in the DC stable.
Concerning Spider-Man
Even though Marvel is the young gun, Spider-Man's tank seems to be running dry. Ultimate Spider-Man is great, but it's basically rehashing everything that came before with some new twists. Spidey's rogues gallery is in shambles and most every single villain is damaged goods now. Brand New Day is a reversion to 1970 or there abouts.
There are two Spider-Man stories I can think of off the top of my head that I would consider to be excellent in the last 10 to 15 years. The first, surprisingly, is a recent Sensational Spider-Man story that featured Mary Jane stalling some capekillers in a diner while Peter makes his way to meet up with her. The other is Amazing Spider-Man #400, featuring the death of Aunt May before magic and actresses and other crap erased this from existence. Did I like, and note you can like something without it being an All-Star Superman level of quality, other Spidey stories along the way? God yes, but they were far from Spidey's hay day back in the Stern and Romita era or earlier.
When's The Retirement Party?
I honestly don't think every character needs to be written off into the sunset, but there came a time, and we can probably pinpointed it if we wanted to around the death of Gwen Stacy or maybe marriage of Peter and MJ, that Marvel and DC both stopped evolving. It's like someone came in and turned the switch and everyone was forced to stay exactly the same for 30 or 40 years.
Why didn't Peter and MJ move on and have children? Why hasn't Superman aged and taken over the Justice Society? Why hasn't Batman grown older and either retired or become the grizzled DKR version of himself? Even if they didn't want to be that radical in their approaches, why has everyone stopped?
Spider-Man is easier to do this with, so I'll focus on him. Stan Lee created Spider-Man. He was a teenager in high school. He aged and moved out of Aunt May's, entered college and he left the title in other people's hands with Spider-Man a very different person from when the book started. Then they killed Gwen Stacy. Game over man, game over! We've been hearing about that damn bridge for 30 years now because, while 100 issues were equivilent to about 7 years of his life, the other 400 (and that's only counting ASM!) are equivilent to 3 or 4 years. I guess it's hard to get over someone when time stops moving.
Superman is similar, but I can't figure out what origin we're using this week, so I'll just say he was high school jock, left for university, became a reporter and went to Metropolis. He acted like a bumpkin and pretended to be human for about 50 years while trying to shack up with Lois Lane. Then he reveals it was all a lie to her and they get married. Now, their relationship is dead. There's no romance, no tension. She's Lois and he's bumpkin by day, Superman by night. Oversimplified, but nothing has changed outside of numerous revamps and origins that all lead back to zero. I don't think Super-kids are the answer, but there's no drama from villains - he's Superman and they can't compete - and there's no drama from relationships and they just keep retelling the same old Lex Luthor stories followed by years of non-Superman level threats. It's like Batman said, Superman hasn't inspired anyone since he died.
Manga Model
I look at manga and think how diverse the number of genres they have. Naruto and Dragonball Z are not the only manga ever created and no where near representative of the manga industry, which is a multi-billion dollar industry compared to the million dollar US comics industry. Even if we look at Dragonball, it started out with the main character as a child, followed him through the years, had a time jump and then had some adult adventures where everyone got married, had kids, aged and the kids grew up. It was progressive and engaging without relying on nostolgia to keep it going. Many series are finite and tell a story and then end it. If there's more to tell and the series sold well enough, the author will release a new book. These can be crime, super hero, action, romance, teen or comedies, it doesn't matter over there.
At some point the US market put a foot down and said no more new books! We want the same bankable commodity forever more and that was it. We get the odd book that launches, gets praised and then falls back down into cancellation, but we still gotta keep collecting that Superman, Batman and Spider-man!
Look at Morrison, Millar, Ellis, etc
Take a look at the list of the most popular writers in comics. People like Grant Morrison and Mark Millar aren't loved, or hated in some cases, because they tell safe, boring rehashes of old stories. Much of their work is termed revolutionary or unconventional or genius, to name a few descriptors. Morrison in particular must be on some serious drugs based on the insane stuff he comes up with. These writers turn the medium on its head and that is why they are popular.
Morrison's All-Star Superman isn't popular because it's Superman. It's popular because it's new and unique and a completely different take that couldn't be told in the DCU and features a Superman that is mallable and has a personality and, to be honest, could be swapped with any generic hero and the story would still be incredible because this isn't the Superman everyone knows. It's just a guy in the same suit that is in an incredible story when you compare him to the wooden personality version in the DCU.
To continue with Morrison, his New X-Men was so revolutionary that it turned the mutant world upsidedown and made a lot of old characters new again. It was so incredibly good and definitive, when taken as a whole as there were some duds in the run, that no writer could follow up on his work without running it into the ground. It's the single reason Marvel was forced to retcon most everything. No one could possibly follow that up with such high concepts and ideas with the exception of Marvel having an Ellis or what have you on deck to take over.
Just look at Ultimates for a perfect example of what's wrong with today's writers. Millar is exciting, genre blending and defying with high concepts and a mix of real world and comics. Loeb is old fashioned and should be put out to pasture. He merely apes other, more contemporary writers in an attempt to be edgy and relevant in a world that passed him by while basically going way over the line in terms of shock value nonsense. Sales back him up, but it will only delude the franchise in the long run.
Conclusion
Yes, an actual conclusion to this manifesto! Many new readers will wonder what the hell I'm talking about, but older ones will recognize how stagnant and redudant many books have become over the years and are constantly rewarded for it out of blind loyalty, to which I am guilty of along with everyone else. Comics in the US came to a point where they could either expand or stick with what works and they gave up on any kind of future and put all the money on a two legged, blind horse and we are left with what you see today, a rather uncreative, on the whole, industry with little diversity and miniscule sales and consumer recognition and the 'for kids' stigma.
I honestly wish we had some growth. I look at the MC2 universe with Spider-Girl and the numerous legacy characters and wish Marvel had become something like that. Same thing for DC. I'd rather a Kingdom Come-esque legacy character ridden future and a greyed, retired Superman, albeit maybe a little less bleak, than the merry-go-round of redundancy that we have today.
Will I keep buying books and supporting this? You bet ya, but that doesn't mean a little part doesn't die everytime I do.
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16 comments:
awesome article, i completely agree. i'm sure people will be up in arms, but a lot of the classic franchises have gotten stale. even messiah complex really didn't live up to the hype, in my opinion. it didn't do justice to the magnitude of the situation and the impact of m-day lost its relevance shortly after it happened. i know you were saying that marvel's been staying fresh, but the fact is that they've been acting like everything's the be all and end all of the marvel universe (civil war, m-day, world war hulk, messiah complex) and as a result of that everything's scattered and the characters really just aren't that relevant to any of it anymore. i don't really have a point to this, but i agree with you that the industry needs to shape up and stop clinging to characters and story lines that have become complete irrelevancies.
One correction there, I said Marvel was fresher, not that they were staying fresh with the times. They are, as you say, very similar to DC in that they stay in their safe little bubble, but DC's characters come with 30+ more years of baggage on every Marvel character. That's all I meant by them being a little fresher or newer in people's minds.
new characters get put out there all the time. no one buys them. people buy supes, bats and spidey.
and I can't be the only who notices how much money the movies and other associated properties pull in.
it isn't rocket surgery.
I agree. I tell myself all the time I don't need to keeping getting "this" title or when the they start "that" title up again, but I do because you never know when we will get something like the current Captain America and Green Lantern. I do love the "new" comics that Millar mentions, I like when there are definitive endings to creator owned series.
First off. Great article. There are so many places to begin but I'll just start here: Marvel and DC (I pick them because they set the tone) are too event-driven. The reason why we appreciate comics like Captain America and Green Lantern is because we love the evolution of stories and characters. The fact that writers like Brubaker and Johns have months of details and plotting down is clealy evident. You feel like you're going somewhere and you're enjoying the ride the whole time. Unfortunately, this isn't the current popular model. It's always how the newest event can shock and awe more than the last event. I still remember Secret Wars and the first Crisis. They meant something. Now it's all about the sound and fury (and mostly sales.) And we fall for it most every time. If One More Day is any indication, many writers could tell better, more original stories if they weren't constrained by editors and the big companies that license these character. It's frustrating. But to me the only answer is to vote with your wallet. People (myself included)buy bad comics out of habit. As a readership, we need to continue to do a better job of celebrating great comics, independent or otherwise, and hold companies accountable for the shit they publish. The last thing I will say (for now) is that we have to not be stubborn and acknowledge that the kinds of comics that my dad loved aren't the same kind I do and wont be the same kind my kids will like. Comic companies would be smarter to cater to each of these audiences.....
I'm going to have to disagree. I'm all for keeping things interesting within the universe by shaking things up a bit (which is why I guess I'm more of a Marvel fan), but the fundamentals stay the same; people aren't interested in a universe where Superman is an old guy, Batman is dead/retired/whatever, and so on; that's not what the core of the characters are about. You can do a great Elseworld on it, sure.
You mention MC2, for example; that was a flop; people aren't interested in reading about Spider-Man's teenage daughter with Spidey himself a retired, middle-aged man.
Each universe has its core characters, characters' whose popularity is longstanding. It's true they aren't new, but they're still popular.
If there was a huge market for new characters, it would be evident; but new characters don't catch on, and there's none but the audience to blame for that.
I wonder why DC, Marvel and others don't promote their creator owned titles more to the comic book fans and especially to non-superhero crowd. I remember someone saying on of the differences between Manga and American comics is consistency in creators. Naruto doesn't have a different writer and artist every 3 volumes. There are stories that are/were long running with one writer and one artist(more or less). Stories like Y The last Man, 100 Bullets, Sandman, Ex Machina, Astro City, Invincible etc but these aren't really at the Big Two. To DC's credit they have titles like Blue Beetle, Checkmate, Green Lantern going but it looks like BB and Checkmate might get the ax soon.
I guess my point is as long as American comics are made and treated as something for the "hard core fans" or not mainstream it's not gonna change.
Another that bugs me is seeing crappy "cartoon" comic shows and generally crappy on Cartoon, CW and Fox kids. They are willing to import, license, edit and dub shows from Japan because the audience like it but when they make new shows they go for the same old crappy shows. Look at the Fantastic Four animated that followed the movie, or The Batman show that followed Batman Begins or the Transformers show that followed the movie. It's like the have learned nothing.
And, I thought DC made a deal with Random House. How is that going along?
I can't speak for long term stuff ie decades of comic history but I can tell my own personal ideas.
several years ago I got into comics when, alternate history buff I am, started getting Exiles. The whole new world every issue thing and the fact characters actually died and got removed to make way for a new characterisation was great. Then I think Winnick left and for awhile it was ok. The Hyperion arc was good, Proteus was good, then they seemed to just run out of steam. For awhile now they do nothing but sit around the Panoptichron, except change their name. Though I read every Exiles series still I have not managed to get interested in the slightest in Sage, Rogue or Cat. Psylocke at least got into things with her backstory with Slaymaster. When the whole point of a series is the ability to go to new worlds where things are different sitting around with the same people for issue on end sort of loses the point. Also now they drop the "When you die, you're dead" stuff and bring back people. I think I know what old school readers thought of Bucky.
I also used to have Cable/Deadpool. Now I'll admit I got it for Deadpool, so eventually I got sick of Cable hogging the limelight and quit.
Generally though I just pick up what interests me. I have only a few "series" I get. Exiles, Legion of Superheroes, Thunderbolts. Now thunderbolts is interesting. I picked it up only after the Civil war so it is as you said people nowadays want a change not the old staple, granted Thunderbolts isn't exactly decades old (well maybe one). As I said I started with exiles because things are different, for the same reason I like What-If and Elseworlds. Maybe I, like others, don't like the old status quo, we want to see a change, we want to see Batman grow old and bitter (well older) and Superman lose faith. Which brings me to Kingdom Come. Was not the whole point that Alex Ross likes the old school stuff as opposed to 90's stuff as Magog was based on.
Yes Marvel has recently been mixing things up but as br said then everyone is out of place, but that seems to be a problem with the solution. You introduce new elements and change characters but then unlike before when they all did the same thing for 30 years they no longer all fit together. To make something work you need stability. If you suddenly change things for everyone they all fall apart. I think the solution is to take it gradually. Change things but over a matter of years so that they can slowly fall into their new places, and for goodness sake if you change something like making a hero's identity public have the dignity to stick with it not take the easy way out and have the wizard fix it (cough..spiderman). People just lose respect for you since clearly you don't have the courage to live with what you make.
I fell the same way. It feels like to me that the stories put out today in the major universes are only relevant at the time they are put out. After they are done with an arc it just falls into obscurity. There are major plotlines that have long term ramifications (Civil War, Messiah Complex), but your normal arc of Spiderman will not matter in a month. I would just like to see some long term consequences for stuff that happens in stories that I pay my money for.
For an event to mean something, to me it has to stick. The original Crisis litterally changed everything.
On another note, perhaps the most succesful case of doing something new with a property, in terms of getting mass exposure, was Batman Beyond. Not only was it a new take on Batman, but it worked out so well. We had a Batman who was nothing like the original, and heck, who wasn't even an established charecter. And Terry worked. Bruce was present, mostly sat in the batcave handing out advice, and was still awsome. We rarely saw established villians, and most of the villians were new creations. They may not have been the same warped psycology type as most of the original Batmans, but the were still cool.
As for Manga, the ability to have a single creator through the whole run helps, but that's not exclusive. Lots of great titles from the states have done that, like Y, Cerebus, and Sandman. There are some culteral reasons for Manga's success, and possibly economic. For one thing having phonebook sized anthologies, for what probably isn't much more than a single issue, must help. Also they don't mess with the story to make it artifically fit the trade. If the Tankobon ends in the middle of the big fight, they assume that readers will just pick up the next volume. Well thats what I figured anyways. I may be wrong.
i agree with what you said completely...
the thing is... it's nearly impossible for anything to stay relevant in main stream super hero comics because eventually almost every story will be undone and therefore lose whatever pertinence it had.
some examples of this include: jason todd, bucky, spider-man's marriage, super-girl, krypto, and blue beetle, doom patrol, and the ever lovin' legion of super heroes, jean grey, or any of the 3 billion deaths that have occured in the DCU. don't get me wrong, wrong... some of these retcons have yielded great stories for both companies, but they still tend to make any major events in the characters lives feel hollow and unimportant.
this is one of the reason's why i finally had to give up on superman/batman. i love the concept of two heroes with very different means working towards the same motives, and how they might react. however, the was never any danger to the stories, because you always know that something "important" could never happen to either batman or supes outside of the pages of their own titles.
and what makes it seem worse is that, any thing that is written away or changed today will be brought back by another writer in blank number of years because the writer really loved that version of the character. that's why i think DC is trying to return to the golden age that was their silver age, and marvel's kinda sorta trying to get back to he bronze age... because the current powers in charge of DC and marvel are trying to return to their pre-concieved notions of what great comics are...
sweet lord i sound like a bitter, rambling old man... anyway, just waned to tell you that I love your site. you and I tend to like the same comics for the same reasons... so i'll almost always give something you dig a try... that's how i came to love atomic robo...
keep the insights a coming...
A lot of great feedback from everyone here. I was actually surprised by the amount of comments I received, so I want to say thanks for taking the time to write up so many detailed posts.
@sazyski - That is exactly my point though. New characters do not work because the Big 2 refuse to let go of their cash cows. They do little to no promotion or support for the new books that break the norm and because readers have to keep buying their 9 Batman and Superman titles every month to keep their run together, they have little room for new things in their budget.
Also, just as you say, new books will get cancelled, so why bother picking it up. That's the mentality of a lot of people. It won't last, so I'm not going to start collecting and have it cancelled at issue 11, such as The Order recently received for an example.
A Spider-Man movie would have happened back in the 70s if they had the means to do it, special effects-wise. If Spider-Man's book had continued to progress as it once did, they'd still have made a movie about it today. Notice none of the storylines take anything from new stories? Venom is the only one that really got tacked in there and ended up a joke. There will be no JMS Spidey movie, no Unmasking, no Clone Saga, no The Jury or a Maximum Carnage movies.
@Several Commenters - As I read through these, I found it hilarious that so many were mentioning Captain America and Green Lantern as examples of what good progression in the industry because these are the same two I would consider in that light as well. A consistent voice, great art, well thought out story that builds on everything that came before while respecting previous history. Bucky came back in Cap, but it didn't invalidate any previous stories. Bucky didn't even die in a comic book. It was a flashback long ago.
The big thing though is that these books are out of continuity for the most part. It's like they exist in a bubble and occasionally stick their head up to see what's going on in their respective universes. The same applies to Blue Beetle, Checkmate and numerous others. Hell, Blue Beetle could be an indie title based on how different the book is to every other DC title and how little exposure he has.
@islandliberal - Much like sazyski's comment, you pretty much spell out the point I was trying to make. People have grown to the point that we don't want new books. That's wrong. We want books, but we can't be bothered supporting them because a) we don't have the money to support multiple new books or try out every random title and b) we have to keep reading those same books that have been recycling stories for the past 70 years.
Everytime someone goes out and buys some obscure book, like a Checkmate or a Nextwave, something they really love because of how different, unique, fun, original, etc it is, they get slapped back down with the cancellation to the point people don't want to risk "wasting" money on a book that willb e cancelled.
As for MC2 or KC-like futures, those were examples. MC2, 2099, etc were not designed to replace the Marvel Universe. People viewed them as out of continuity and 'pointless' simply because it didn't impact their perfect run on Amazing Spider-Man or assumed it would be cancelled, as much of those lines ended being, and thus waste their time and money getting involved with.
However, you have to go back to 1980 or thereabouts when the Marvel people decided they could make money off these characters with lunchboxes and toys and so on. They, and DC seemingly did it around the same time, put their universes in a jar, much like Kandor, and decided to stop all progression, stop all aging and put a can on the originality. Creators could play with characters to an extant, but anymore and they get canned. No one interfers with cashing in.
If Marvel had continued onwards, ignoring the desire to stick with what makes money now and allowed the stories to dictate how the characters progressed instead of editorial and relied on creators to create new and interesting ideas as time went on, then we might have had something similar to MC2.
I only chose MC2 because it was a very realistic future. It had no flying cars, it wasn't post-apocalyptic, it was basically the current New York 15 years in the future with some newer heroes.
I'm not trying to insult you here, but do you think Superman is popular outside of the comic community? His books sell like 50-70k range (estimate) every month. He's pretty much just there, treading water in a consistent manner as Superman fans keep buying his books. You go ask people who Superman is, they'll tell you Clark Kent, his powers, etc. Ask them to name a villain other than Lex Luthor and the only one you might get is Doomsday and that's only a maybe. Superman is the equivilent of Tom Sawyer or Huck Finn or as Millar claimed Sherlock Holmes.
People know who he is, but they don't really care anymore. That's the general public. We fans can name the 32 flavours of Kryptonite, spell Mxyliptk (which I cannot =p) and so on. We care because its our hobby. Our hobby is smaller than the Grandmas Knitting Association, which is pretty sad. I made that up as well, but there aren't exactly millions of us out there.
Finally, when I mean new characters or books, I'm not saying tear down the Marvel Universe and make spaghetti western comics or old nickel and dime books. I'm just talking things like the X-Men, who have gone through 2 or 3 separate "young mutants" groups that are all, well, adults now, yet the original team are in their 20s. Yeahbuwha-? A 40 year old Cyclops is still Scott. We won't hate him for it. You cna spread out the 40-60 age bracket for a long time. Young people don't stay young while other's catch up in age. It wouldn't require them killing off anyone to do something liek this, but it's also far too late to change the pattern. Both companies are locked in and will hang on to this until they run them into the ground.
The other thing I meant by new books was genres. Manga has romance, comedy, romantic comedy, dramas, sports (yes sports manga and they're good), slice of life, "superhero" (DBZ, Naruto, etc), teens (Death Note), adult (Claymore or Berzerk), period dramas(Lone Wolf and Cub), and so on. Hell, I've read some about baking bread, another about brewing sake and yet another in a fantasy "multiverse" spanning adventure. We have capes and the a dozen or so Vertigo books, maybe the odd indie that stands out from the pack.
@kwaku - they don't promote them because they don't own them. Sure, they publish Bendis' Powers, but they make no real money off it. Why promote it when they can spam Brand New Day posters and cash in on that? Same with DC. Vertigo is great and a nice feather in their cap, but Vaughan is going to make the money off that movie when it gets made, not DC. They give the books a little push and help get published more to keep creators happy and make a small profit on it for doing nothing editorial or marketing wise.
I agree on the cartoons. I remember Reboot from when I was younger. That show was so good. So many funny references to different media and Im a bit of a computer guy, so all the random computer jargon that showed up and the entire premise appealed to me. Add the incredible (for the time) 3D animation and solid voice acting and how the story progressed from season to season (unheard of it with non-sequential stuff like NInja Turtles being popular) and I was in heaven. However, it wasn't to be and it died out in the 4th season with a cliffhanger made for TV movie (which was just 4 straight episodes).
In regards to Japanese anime, the animation quality and techniques is far superior to American equivilent (at the same price range for artists anyways). Add in the fact voice work is regarded as a serious profession and music is easy and cheap to license and you get a much higher quality showing for the smae as a cheap Totally Spies piece of crap from US teams. Not all anime is spectacular though, but most of the stuff, outside requisite Pokemon-like shows, is fairly top notch. Cowboy Bebop is still amazing and it's like 10 years old. The jazz opening Tank! is so good. I still listen to the mp3 of it.
@negadarkwing - I was surprised at how well Batman Beyond turned out, myself. I assumed cheap 90's cash in now that Batman TAS was over and it ended up being equal or better to that one. The villains were really well done and Blight is still pretty crazy when I think about it. The show wasn't Batman, but it was at the same time. I think it really walked the tightrope on that one, balancing the new concepts with just the right amount of the old. To continue with the anime/manga references, it reminded me of how a new Gundamn show ends up.
Spider-Girl's comic reminds me of Batman Beyond. Both had a lot of highly original villains that really felt like rogues galleries and not cheap knock offs or throw aways.
@blaker - The sliding timeline really plays into what you're saying. If nothing matters and all continuity eventually gets overwritten, why not just set up a timeline, write stories and age characters and then reboot when you get to the end? It would be like if Marvel ended and the Ultimate Universe took over back in 2000 or whenever it launched,e xcept more gracefully.
Now, I don't want that, that's just an extreme case. It would solve all their problems, keep fresh ideas coming in and it would allow people to go back and retell stories in one-shots or minis or graphic novels if they wished. DC basically did this with the first Crisis. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman's origins underwent massive changes or reboots.
However, this isn't all about DC and Marvel. The main point I've been trying to get across, in a rambling nonsensical way, is that DC and Marvel put a strangle hold on the industry and stopped all progression while weeding out every other genre, from comedy to western to detective, and then proceeded to recycle old stories for decades to the point that no new genres, characters or titles last.
While I don't want Marvel and DC to die or go under or even destroy their universes in favour of new titles and heroes, I do wish we had moved past the tradtional capes and tights. Variety is the spice of life and, while I do enjoy superhero stories, there are literally thousands of other ideas they could explore and as long as Marvel and DC refuse to open up new genres and support them, they will never grow. But they make money off Superman and Spider-man toys, so not likely it'll ever happen.
Wow, long comment is long. Everyone had so much to say , it took me a while to get through. To those that disagreed, don't take my reply as an attack or as me trying to force you to change your mind. Just some spirited debate. For those I didn't address by name, your comment wasn't bad or anything. It was probably too concise or left little to really comment on other than a simple "thanks" or "I agree".
Again, thank you for so many well thought out comments.
Can't edit comments, but I say to kwaku:
"Vertigo is great and a nice feather in their cap, but Vaughan is going to make the money off that movie when it gets made, not DC."
That should be
"...,but Vaughan is going to make the money off that Y: The Last Man movie when it gets made, not DC."
Millar’s perspective in the interview is that of a reader, not a writer--but given his familiarity with comics, he’s not part of the market that Marvel and DC are aiming at. They’re aiming at the same short-term(two years or so) readers they’ve always aimed at. The problems with the quality of the stories can’t be separated from the problems with the format. If any given character appeared in, say, one or two prose novels a year, as is the case with mystery novel series, there wouldn’t be complaints, the quality of the stories would be much higher--but, of course, there wouldn’t be comic shops and there’d be a much smaller fan base for the characters.
Marvel and DC are treating their characters as if they’re comic strip characters, while readers want them treated as if they’re being written by novelists. That’s one way of describing the continuing conflict. Given the length of time DC’s characters have been around, though--there’s arguably nothing more to be done with them. The good stories that can be written about the “basic” Superman and Batman have been done.
Note that it’s possible to rationalize everything that goes on in the Marvel Universe by structuring the universe like Piers Anthony’s Xanth. The gods implicitly control what goes on in the universe on a cosmic scale, prevent characters from aging, and enable powers, even while some powers arise naturally (e.g.. psychic abilities, mutations). Such background structuring wouldn’t change what goes on day to day; it would just rationalize genre conventions and allow the gods to manipulate events occasionally. Death could be altered, in that a character could choose to stay dead, or to be brought back in order to serve a deity, and there are other ramifications, such as children being allowed to age. Anyway, the Xanth model works well, but how would fans react?
SRS
Wahoo, a fellow Claymore Fan! I review the chapters as they come out on my blog. Anyways, getting on topic, one thing that gives me some hope is that there seems to be at least a token effort going on by the big two to keep some of the new charcters visible. After Irredemable Ant-Man was cannced they moved Eric into Avengers Intitative. Blue Beetle seems to be likly to end up in the Teen Titans. I'm cynical enougth to think that in the end those won't be enough. But they help. Heck when I was a kid the book I most read was Marvel Classics, witch reprinted Marvel Team up, and thus gave me a good exposure to the whole marvel universe, while drawing me in with Spider-Man. And since it was a side title, the writers didn't have to drop what they were in the middle of to acomidate a charecter who needed promoting. Course right now the actual owners defintly see the merchendising and movies as far more signifegant than the comics.
Of course not every attempt to inject fresh life into a charecter works. Spider-Man Unlimeted tried to cash in on Batman Beyond, and while not bad, it never seemed to properly Click to me.
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